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Once upon a time there was a Yahoo! club which was worth something. In fact, it was very useful to this
webmaster, the webmaster of Internet Tips And Secrets. It was frequently a volatile club, with opinions stated bluntly and
answers equally blunt. It was fun, and it made me feel as if I was talking to a community of like minded individuals.
These were people like me: they were interested in creating small pathways through the web, linking sites
related in some way. Paths through the vast wilderness of this immense, confusing, huge vastness that we call the
internet. Like the small paths through the mountains, plains and forests made by the Indians (American) hundreds of years
ago, they linked the small outposts together to form larger communities.
Those delicate pathways were formed by the CGI links of the Webring system. And when we got lost or found
some small treasure, we shouted to one another in the webringnews club.
In the future (and in the present) people will curse or mutter vague obscenities when they hear the name
Webringnews Club. Even so, I remember a time, in the not so distant past, when it was a great place to visit, and a
wonderful place to communicate with people who formed these communities.
Yes, things did become very chaotic in the days leading up to and following Black Tuesday (September 5,
2000), the day that Webring died. Of course people were upset and concerned. Not only was a huge change made, but Yahoo!
did one of the worst jobs communicating with their end users (ringmasters and ringmembers) that I have seen or heard about
in my 22 years of involvement in the computer industry. I have been a vice president of two companies, and never would it
even have crossed my mind to communicate with my end users in the manner which Yahoo! has chosen.
The methods Yahoo! has used to communicate are the same methods used by companies who lay off half their
staff or by generals before attempting bloody coups. They are not the methods used by thinking men and women who care one
whit about anyone or anything other than the bottom line.
Of course ringmasters were upset by the changes - nobody asked their opinions, nobody showed them what to
expect, and nobody acknowledged their concerns. In fact, the attitude of Yahoo was simple and plainly obvious: you will be
assimilated.
In fact, the words of the moderator the Webringnews remind me of some words that have stuck in my mind for
years. I was having a conversation with a friend of mine from Brazil. He said they have an old saying in Brazil which
simply says (and he pointed out the translation from Portuguese to English was loose), "If you know you are going to get
raped, you may as well lay back and enjoy it".
Yahoo! has raped Ringmasters and ringmembers all over the planet.
I, for one, do not enjoy getting raped. And I will not lay back and enjoy it.
Instead, I will do what any thinking person would do under similar circumstances: I will move on.
This was a great club.
Webringnews is dead. Please bury it before it begins to stink even more than it does.
The Posts which Prompted me to Write the Above article
You ask how RM's know this club is here? We used to have a link on the Hub pages guiding people here but that link no
longer exists due to the ID's being used and the degree of flaming Y!. I continue to try and get the link back but
everytime I even get close to having the club cleaned up the flames start all over again and put me back 50 paces.
You want Y!WR to listen to you? Then start making your posts stick to the point nothing else. It's simple to do, anyone
can do it.
You want more RM's to know about this club? Start policing yourselves on your ID's and posts. Every post can be written
in a constructive way. However they are having to be deleted for not following the guidelines and then your ideas are
gone. Help me help you by writing your posts in a constructive manner not in the flame style that has come to be the norm.
What's wrong with the posts? Too many are not even near the topic here. I've just deleted posts and banned users for
advertising their rings they made just for some project of another user. These are not acceptable. If you find a problem
with a thousand NavBars on one SSNB call then post it but don't post "Well I have X NavBars and if you have a ring I can
join....". Those are not acceptable either.
Why have you been abandoned? Some of the users here have forced Y!WR to choose between reading a lot of garbage or work
on the system, guess what they are going to do. Marissa and I forward every problem report to Y!WR just so they don't have
to read all of the extra that doesn't have a thing to do with them.
This isn't a grip post, I'm telling you how it is and why we can't get anywhere. I don't like to have to add things to
the guidelines and restrict the posts anymore then I have to. But in order for me to not make those additions the users
here have to start policing themselves.
I'm going to be honest with everyone of you, I recommended this club be closed because it had become just about
useless. However the WR Team wanted to keep it open for you.
Something's you can do to help: 1) use a Y!ID that isn't offensive.
2) report problems without flaming.
3) don't repeat what someone else said just to be able to make a post.
4) include your ring id, y!id, and page url's when reporting problems. It makes it much easier for us to forward to the
WR Team. If you don't want to post the info here then email it directly to me.
THE BOB - Senior Club Moderator webringnews@yahoo.com
frustrated_al
10/4/00 8:23 am
I don't know that I would even recommend a link to this forum on the hub pages. What I would recommend is this, and its
something Y!WR could have been doing all along.
Provide a link from the hubs to a page which provides a current status of the system. It could provide things like: -
duration and reasons for recent, upcoming and current downtimes - recent bug fixes - recent design changes & upgrades -
known problems, and what the status is for each (including both bugs and design issues) - schedule of release of new
functions, like the AMT - links to comprehensive and accurate help pages - email links which will return answers from real
live people (and an autoresponse to let us know the message has been received and is being worked on) - add to this list
(or clarify) anything which receives a significant number of individual emails
Most of these could be completed in a couple hours. Reworking the help pages would certainly take longer, but I believe
it would be well worth the time.
I continue to believe that the state of this club is a direct result of frustration felt by the members, and I believe
that frustration is a direct result of Y!WR not being willing to make the effort to let webring users know what is going
on with the system that they are expected to use.
kaassaus
10/4/00 9:05 am
webringnews wrote on Date: 10/4/00 2:40 am
>However they are having to be deleted >for not following the guidelines and then >your ideas are gone.
This is not quite right. Allow me as a new member to relate what happened yesterday.
Please do not write this post off as contrary; I was amazed by the treatment received due to bias on the part of the
moderator and I expect a fair hearing from you.
Yesterday I replied to a post of the day before. In my opinion I asked a perfectly relevant question, namely what
happens when right after submitting a join form you discover you misspelled your url.
The original post was probably off topic because it asked us to join the poster's rings. As I am in the process of
coming to grips with the move to yahoo, I practice on things like these though.
Within an hour both my question and the original post had disappeared.
Not understanding at all, I posted a question about the disappearance. James replied with a decent mention of the
posting rules, from which I gathered for the first time someone was actively deleting my posts without informing me.
To you this may seem normal, to me it doesn't. I'm a middle aged, well educated woman who is used to grown up
communication and people able to think for themselves.
I still cannot find anything wrong in my initial question, nor in a question about posts disappearing. Maybe you can
explain it to me.
Yet those posts of James and I disappeared too.
Only not before I had replied to James and he again to me. All decent and to my understanding within the rules. I was
amazed to find even these last posts deleted.
The overall reasonable things you write in your post work both ways. I find it fairly rude to be treated as a
disposable idiot on this list - I'm used to people treating each other equally and respectfully. If moderators represent
yahoo in this manner, they are not doing anyone a service.
Adding the frustration many people are experiencing with moving their rings to yahoo, I cannot help but understand if
they cross the lines of decency here and there. I myself am starting to feel the need too. Sometimes anger and revolts are
needed to progress.
>Help me help you by writting your >posts in a constructive manner not >in the flame style that has come >to be the
norm.
I don't think you mean to, but this comes across as patronizing. Even though this is not my native language, I do think
I express myself clearly and decently enough to decide what is fit and what isn't.
>What's wrong with the posts? >Too many are not even near the topic >here. I've just deleted posts and >banned users
Ban and delete me if you feel it is necessary. I won't blame it on you or myself but on a system thinking of people as
mindless. There may be enough of those indeed, but the quality and knowledge won't be found on yahoo. They may not be the
ingredients generating profit anyway.
>This isn't a grip post, I'm telling >you how it is and why we can't get >anywhere.
I understand the situation you're in. I also sincerely hope you'll always have some understanding for the feelings of
us as former webring.org ringmasters having to deal with all this.
>I'm going to be honest with everyone >of you, I recommended this club be >closed because it had become just >about
useless. However the WR Team >wanted to keep it open for you.
I have to disagree on the usefulness. It isn't always about happy snappy constructive things. It isn't to please an
organization who more or less took over our work and property. It isn't about keeping moderators happy. It's also not
solely about helping each other. Usefulness can also be simply about telling what you think and seeing what others think.
Even if it isn't pretty.
Hoping for some understanding o
pamster_2000 (F/Encinitas, CA)
10/4/00 9:36 am
Well, y'know Bob - when you treat people like children, they frequently start behaving that way. It's a fact of life.
It's human nature.
It's been a month now. There have been HUNDREDS - even THOUSANDS - of valid questions asked - of real problems reported
- of helpful, useful posts in this club. Posts which have helped Y!WR fix this mess that they made - at least as much as
it can be fixed. Posts which helped them find and fix problems that they were unable to find themselves before they went
live. Posts in which members of this club have helped each other figure out how this works - because we get little to no
help from anyone else. Posts that pointed out problems with the help text - where it was incorrect. Yet all we hear about
from the "parents" are what we've done wrong - the tiny percentage of off-topic posts. The entire group is painted with
one broad brush of "flamers, off-topic posters".
But why, I ask, should we even try to stay on topic, when our on-topic posts aren't responded to by those who might
know the answers? Many, maybe even most, of us really don't care about what Yahoo thinks of us, we just want our rings to
work. What we'd really like is to have them BACK, but baring that, to at least be functional. And, we'd like to be able to
explain things to our members - and in order to explain things we need to understand them.
I might be alone in this, but at this point, I don't care of this is an "official" club, or not - cause I haven't seen
where it being official has gotten us much. Sure occasionally, we get a response that a problem we've posted has been
"sent to engineering" - and even more rarely, we'll get a response that "your problem has been fixed".
But what about the bigger picture? What about all the questions where we've asked - "how is this supposed to work",
"how can we do this", "how can we contact our member", "what's the list of messages that goes to our members - can we
modify them", "when will AMT start working", "what about rings that were deleted before the redo"? And we've received no
response. How about the total disregard for the problem list that James so kindly maintained - using hours of his
volunteer time to aggregate, describe, track in a professional way - only to be told, yesterday, that "we're really not
interested in your list" (which many of us suspected anyway.)
These situations can be helped or worsened by the moderators. I think that being a good moderator is similar to being a
good parent. Moderators can be a calming presence in a club - they can answer questions, relieve frustrations, lighten
tense moments, be attentive, value the participants - let the kids know that they're being heard. So that frustrations
don't increase and flames don't get out of hand.
Or they can be stern disciplinarians, that complain about the kids, delete their off-topic posts no matter how
innocuous they are (I mean REALLY - what DID that "5600?" post hurt?), constantly tell them what they are doing wrong,
never answer their questions, never tell them what they've done right. This lets the kids know that they don't matter,
their comments, opinions, input are of no value. Then the kids think, shoot, if we can't do anything right, why should we
try?
Respect begets respect - and vice versa. From launch date, actually before launch date, I have felt that this group is
totally not respected. We asked to see the prototype/design, we were ignored. We asked to help beta test, we were ignored
(actually I guess we did beta test it, they just called it "launch"). We've had Yahoo employees come in here and tell us
"you'll just have to wait for things". We've had posts deleted. We've been repeatedly yelled at for off-topic posts or
what some consider flames. We've had a fellow club member yell at us, go off in a snit, and then return as a moderator.
Not ONCE has anyone said - gee thanks James for keeping that list, here's a status update - or thanks for identifying all
these problems, here's a status update - or here's what we're working on, we have some questions about how YOU use the
system. Sure y_webring gave us a status update once on all the problems in James list - then we didn't hear from that ID
again - what happened - did some yahoo in a suit tell him not to do that any more?
I have a lot of respect for those who y_webring represents. I've worked with programmers for over 10 years, and in my
experience almost all of them would want to do what y_webring did for us that weekend. They WANT to talk with the users,
and fix their problems, and make it work for them. I mean, that's why they write code - for someone to use, and to enjoy
using.
If you want a structured place to report problems - this isn't the place to do it. You don't take a place that was used
for one activity and try to change it overnight to another. You set up a specific place to report problems. If someone
wants to file an "It's Broken" report - they fill out a form - with blanks for Site ID, Ring ID, date identified,
description of the problem. You maintain a page of reported problems that users can check before they file a report - you
respond to people who send in a report - you update the status of problems reported. THEN things will stay on track.
But the longer you ignore people who came with the best of intentions - the more and more frustrated they will become -
and the more likely they will do whatever they can to get some attention. ANY kind of attention - even if it's negative -
cause it means the "parents" are noticing.
So, this is probably the end of the line for me. I'm not sure why I stayed around so long, being as I decided long ago
to move my rings. Maybe it was like slowing down to look at the car wreck along the side of the road - only, in this case,
I kept going round and round the block to look again and again. Always hoping it wasn't as bad as I thought - hoping
against hope that maybe I could help. Hoping that the patient wasn't as dead as he looked - maybe the emergency crews
could resuscitate the patient. But, it's been too long. The brain has been without circulation for too long - they may
resuscitate the body but the brain is dead. A good doctor knows when to pull the plug.
Bob - thanks for what you've tried to do for us.
Bye all
Pamster
kaassaus
10/4/00 10:34 am
pamster_2000 wrote on Date: 10/4/00 9:36 am
>So, this is probably the end of the line >for me.
I thought this was a very powerful and sincere post.
Even if not a fraction of it will be taken to heed by either yahoo or its moderators, it will help some on this list
decide how much of their dignity they are willing to trade for a webring in this system.
Be well pamster,
kaassaus
gbreez1 (F/Steuben, Maine)
10/4/00 10:49 am
Both Pamster & Kaassaus have expressed in eloquent terms the feelings of many of us here. Dignity retained intact by
both, despite belittlement by Y!management forces, indicates true strength and beauty. I feel honored to be in their
company. As I feel in sisterhood with Pam through our WOSIB membership, I will not have to miss her. But, I feel sad for
those who will no longer have the benefit of her presence.
bbwbhmfa (M/San Diego, CA)
10/4/00 10:56 am
Thank you Pam.
You said the things we been wanting to say but feared retailiation/banning
ka_jamesshuggins_20001004
10/4/00 11:55 am
To The Bob I shall respond to your thoughtful post in many tiny parts, both to permit me to focus on a single point,
and to quell, at least a little, my tendency to describe clock building when someone asks the time. This is the first such
response. I'll make more.
>>>You ask how RM's know this club is here?
Frustrated Al, Kaassaus and Pamster all said it better than I. But I shall try my own words.
The goal, ultimately, is for no one to need to know this club is here. The goal, ultimately, is for Yahoo! WebRing,
and, when applicable, Yahoo! itself, to share, openly, honestly and with the highest authenticity and integrity, all
available information. The goal, ultimately, is for any Yahoo! WebRing RingMaster, Member or visitor to be able, thru the
normal access of the web, not to need to ask a question in this club.
Such a goal is unattainable. However, that does not reduce its value as a goal. Casey Cassum says: Keep your feet on
the ground and reach for the stars. Unattainable goals, like Plato's absolute truths, are valuable grails in our quest.
Recognizing that the goal is unattainable, the second step is a system to catch the fumbles.
Yahoo! WebRing needs a system that permits simple questions to receive quick answers. It should permit operational
problems to be quickly acknowledged, not just to the one experiencing the problem, but to all in the community. It should
provide continual communication of status and prompt resolution. It is a feedback system. It is a trouble ticket system.
It requires timeliness. And it requires human contact with connection. But that system is not this club.
Finally, after all of that, after working to make the club unnecessary, after developing a system to recover the
fumbles, there is a place for this club.
It is a place for the sharing of heart. It is a place for people to come to express the facts of their feelings. It is
a place for the community to gather to grieve, to scream, to yell, to cry, to wipe each other's tears, to hug, to hold
hands, to rejoice and to celebrate.
It should not be "necessary" for RingMasters to know of this club. To the extent that it is necessary, it summarizes
many of the current problems.
It should be a bonus for them to know. It should be a treasure. It should be a jewel. It should be a place, not
fundamentally necessary to the operation of the Yahoo! WebRing, but of, for and about the community that is WebRing.
James S. Huggins
webdreamers2000
10/4/00 2:04 pm
BRAVO PAM!!! I sure am Glad we are Webring Sisters so *I* don't loose All your Helpful Knowledge. You have Answered
more Questions and Helped more people here and gave them the CORRECT information when they asked someone (that will be
left nameless as to not be banned).
I think it is a shame that with all that Help RM have been in pointing out the problems and design issues from the
beginning of all this so they can be fixed, to now be downgraded and insulted for being upset at the position we have now
been put in.
DJ dj@webdreamers.org
ka_jamesshuggins_20001004
10/5/00 8:45 am To The Bob
I'm responding to your thoughtful post in tiny parts. This is #2.
>>>You want Y!WR to listen to you?
For me, personally, the issue is not whether Yahoo! WebRing listens. I know that they listen.
If they were not listening, "offensive Y! IDs" and "flaming posts" would not matter. If they were not listening, we
would not need a moderator. If they were not listening the club would permit all posts to remain because it would be
completely detached.
And I am confident that information regarding specific operational glitches flows from this community to the technical
staff where it can be resolved as quickly as possible, given the resource constraints.
No. It is not that I think I am not heard. Rather it is that I do not hear them.
Oh, I hear the isolated, specific responses to isolated specific problems.
But what made this country great and, in fact, what distinguishes modern man, are not individuals solving isolated
specific problems. What distinguishes the grand endeavor from the routine task is not the ability to address an isolated
specific problem. Rather, it is the ability of the human community to conceive of the abstract, to elaborate broad
principles, to evoke a vision, to share, to build a consensus, to channel action and, ultimately, to create.
These characteristics (abstraction, principles, vision, sharing, consensus, action and creation) are also what helped
to create that thing that today we call the Internet. And they are the things that keep it both vibrant, free and almost
out of control as well as structured, compliant and cohesive, what I have called in my writings, "structured anarchy".
When Sage Weil began the journey we now refer to as WebRing, he unleashed upon this infant infrastructure, an energy.
That energy enabled isolated individuals, using the tools that he and his coworkers created, to assemble communities. They
were communities of content, communities of purpose, communities of connection, communities of communication, communities
for the sake of community and even communities opposed to community.
All across America, and reaching out across this big blue ball, these characteristics of abstraction, principles,
vision, sharing, consensus, action and creation gave rise to something. It is something you and I both became a part of.
It is something that you and I both share. And it is something that you and I now both struggle with as it continues to
evolve.
It is not that I think we are not being heard. Rather it is that I am not hearing them. I am not hearing the
abstractions. I am not hearing the principles. I am not hearing the vision. I am not hearing the inspiring call for
consensus and action. And, perhaps most troubling to me, I am not hearing either the sharing of information nor the
encouraging words of creation.
Instead, the image that is conveyed is of a corporate culture that values secrets and that controls information. The
image conveyed is of a culture of isolation, of adversaries, and of mine/yours. The image conveyed is of culture that
ignores the human spirit of those outside the wall who were once part of the holy quest and now seem disenfranchised.
You know (because you have personal ties to the people of the organization), and I know (because I believe in people),
that this is not reality and that the individuals at Yahoo! WebRing care about their work and about the difference it does
make and might make in the future.
But, despite that, we also both know that communication is restricted, that information is confined to the isolated and
specific and that generalities, plans, futures, ideas and concepts are off limits.
You asked "You want Y!WR to listen to you?" Sure. But even more than that, I want Y!WR to talk to me.
James S. Huggins
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